POLYVINYL ALCOHOL (PVA, PVOH) | How Easily Does it Biodegrade?

Posted by Steve Reble on

When we develop products, we stick to these 3 principles:

  1. It has to biodegrade (that means it will decompose into reusable nutrients)
  2. It has to have an eco certification (meaning the ingredients that make our products are 3rd party accredited, so they are best in class for you and our planet)
  3. It’s gotta be plastic free (both to reduce the carbon footprint and, again, to biodegrade)

When we started developing our plastic free liquid dish soap, we wrestled with what plastic alternatives we could use to store it.

The first option we explored was PVOH, PVA, or PVAL - otherwise known as Polyvinyl alcohol.  

PVA/PVOH gained popularity with Dishwasher pods and has since been used to contain a variety of Dishwasher, Laundry detergents and Shampoos for a number of ‘eco brands’, including both 'pods' and also 'laundry sheets', which are becoming increasingly popular.  

PVA/PVOH is technically 'plastic' because it is pliable - bendy and stretchy - but it's not the same plastic as a plastic bag because of what happens to it when it contacts water.

Many companies claim PVA/PVOH is ‘biodegradable’, but when we started digging deeper, this ‘eco-claim’ wasn't so cut and dry.

Why?

PVOH DOESN’T ‘BIODEGRADE’ IT ‘DISSOLVES’

In our research, PVOH does not biodegrade so much as it dissolves into a "non-harmful" monomer, and while those molecules can biodegrade, the time it takes for them to actually biodegrade is a little foggy.  Years, decades, 100 years or more?  Our research wasn't able to provide any conclusive timelines. 

Advocates for PVOH say this is not a problem and it’s a lot better than having mounds of 'solid' plastic floating around the ocean, but it still is leaving ‘something’ behind.  

In a recent Journal article from the Royal Society titled: Microplastics and synthetic particles ingested by deep-sea amphipods in six of the deepest marine ecosystems on Earth, Scientists from Newcastle University conducted what they consider to be a more comprehensive study of microplastics in our Oceans by exploring the ingestion of micro plastics in deep sea trenches.  

By focusing on the deepest reaches of our Oceans, we are better able to glean just how far microplastic pollution has travelled.

“A subsample of microfibres and fragments analysed using FTIR were found to be a collection of plastic and synthetic materials (Nylon, polyethylene, polyamide, polyvinyl alcohol, polyvinylchloride, often with inorganic filler material), semi-synthetic (rayon and lyocell) and natural fibre (ramie). Notwithstanding, this study reports the deepest record of microplastic ingestion, indicating that anthropogenic debris is bioavailable to organisms at some of the deepest locations in the Earth's oceans.” (A. J. Jamieson, L. S. R. Brooks, W. D. K. Reid, S. B. Piertney, B. E. Narayanaswamy and T. D. Linley, The Royal Society Publishing, February 27th, 2019).

PVOH IS OIL BASED = NOT CARBON NEUTRAL

The other challenge with PVOH is that it is derived from petrochemicals (oil based and therefore against dev principal 2).  That said, right now, it's really hard to avoid petrochemicals - hence why we are in the climate crisis we are currently in - because even most 'plant based' cleaners (including our own) contain small amounts of petrochemicals.   

WHY BEESWAX PODS?

Given the unknowns about biodegradation, long term impacts and the reliance on petrochemicals, we chose not to use PVA/PVOH and instead developed our own pod made from all natural materials.  Materials we were already familiar with from our other products - beeswax and other naturally occurring oils, waxes and resins.


What’s great about natural materials is that you don’t need a pile of research to figure out if they decompose - you can just toss them in the earth and know they'll go away.

BUT THERE'S A FLIP SIDE TO OUR BEESWAX PODS
  1. They cost moreR&D is time consuming and expensive.  We are still in the early stages of developing our pods and there are many improvements to be made - both from the design/materials and the manufacturing - and so that means we can't make them as cheaply as their PVA/PVOH counterparts.
  2. There is still 'waste': While the pods are natural and they can be repurposed, reused and composted, there is still 'waste' left behind.  PVOH on the other hand just dissolves.

When it comes to 'price', we did come up with a work around through the Plastic Free Club, but we feel that if we really want to make a change, we need to hit the MASSES and that requires a major drop in the price.  

And this has led us back to a core question.  Should we re-visit PVA/PVOH?

It’s definitely a step forward from traditional plastic, and we're already exploring an improvement that could see a similar film made without oil, but that is a couple years out (at best).  In the meantime, we are left deciding:

SHOULD WE CONTINUE TO DEVELOP OUR OWN ‘WAX SOAP-PODS’ OR SHOULD WE INCORPORATE POLYVINYL ALCOHOL (PVA, PVOH)?  JOIN THE CONVERSATION, COMMENT BELOW.

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186 Comments

Kari Olsen

July 31, 2024
After all my research into PVA, I've decided I am looking for a PVA free powder for my dishwasher, dish soap and washing machine. I'm thinking I'll just mix it in water first before using it to make sure it dissolves. I grew up using powder in a box. Why did we move to pods? Was it just convenience or was it to avoid touching harmful and caustic chemicals?

icousteau

November 11, 2022
I'm just amazed that you are open about this. I found this conversation after going to so many eco sights that simply list PVOH and say it is degradable. That is quite disingenuos and I very much respect how you lay out the real story with the pros and cons of why companies may choose what they do. Basically you are asking is how good to you have to be? Eventually, plastic free for sure. But what to do to get people onboard until the masses follow. Keep on keeping on please!

Suzy

October 15, 2022
Why do we need a “pod”? Once-upon-a-time, people simply put a scoop of dishwasher powder in the dispenser, closed the door and it worked perfectly.

Rajesh mojila

September 24, 2022
It's wonderful to everyone and safe our earth

Thom

July 2, 2022
Please stop using bee's wax. It's exploitation

JOHN SARET

June 1, 2022
"There is still 'waste': While the pods are natural and they can be repurposed, reused and composted, there is still 'waste' left behind. PVOH on the other hand just dissolves." INCORPORATE PVA.

Ciann

April 26, 2022
I love that you are looking for plastic alternatives even at this level. Keep on course, using bees wax is a great idea since bees need their wax and honey harvested to keep the hive healthy and this promotes the cultivation of bees.

Diana

April 11, 2022
I came here looking for dishwasher pods without PVA or PVOH. I can get that junk anywhere. Dishwasher pods that work, and do not contain microplastics, is the exact reason I would buy from you rather than make my own dishwasher detergent.

Marcia

March 29, 2022
What is wrong with powder in a box? Why does it have to be prepackaged for us?

Catherine

December 21, 2021
Why do we need pods? What’s wrong with loose detergent powder and a scoop?

Laura

May 29, 2021
I agree with Rick on the glass. Glass is 100% recyclable and maybe a program where we can ship the glass back to get refilled?

Allison Burgund

April 28, 2021
Man, I am still researching this a year after my initial questioning...

Esther Fyk

September 6, 2020
Please use only plant-based compostable products - soy, hemp, etc. Canadian farmers grow these crops and we can also insist that they be organic. This is, of course, more costly, but it is cheaper than destroying our home, the Earth.

SUmmer

February 27, 2020
You are trailblazing plastic-free products. Stay on course. Eventually, others will follow. Completely plastic-free products are why I trust your company. Go for it!

LisaP

February 15, 2020
Please no PVA/PVOH. Liquid dish soap is a convenience. Your bar soap is a reasonable alternative.

Lara

February 14, 2020
Keep persuing the non plastic route! I agree that maybe you should explore options like soy wax so we don't exploit bees. I've also seen plastic bags made out of cassava, which i think dissolve in water. If there was a dry dishwashing tablet inside, instead of liquid soap, that would be a great replacement for the plastic wrappers.

Brenda LEe

February 9, 2020
How about hemp plastic? Have you looked into that option?

Rick Bogle

February 7, 2020
How about returning to glass? Google says: "Glass bottles and jars are 100% recyclable and can be recycled endlessly without any loss in purity or quality. Over a ton of natural resources are saved for every ton of glass recycled."

On the issue of bees' wax: There has been a significant amount of research done on the intelligence of honey bees. There isn't a way to harvest wax or honey that doesn't hurt and kill bees. There are alternatives to bees' wax and honey that cause much less suffering.

All that said, it's good that people are looking for alternatives to plastic. It seems to me that we need only to look back to see what we were doing before plastic swamped the market.

Denise Fantinato

February 5, 2020
I believe we need to get rid of all plastic. We also need to be aware of what others see. I won’t wear Faux fur, because others won’t necessarily know it’s not real fur. If it looks like fur, it promotes the fur industry. If it looks like plastic, it promotes the use of plastic. The more we don’t see plastic products of any kind, the sooner we will overcome our addiction to plastic.

Wendy Hollis

February 5, 2020
I like the idea of natural pods, without PVOH. Soy wax sounds good. Beeswax could end up becoming too exploitative of bees. Thank you for your integrity!

Rik Smith Ph.D.

February 4, 2020
An interesting question, but I see an easy answer. Don't do plastic. I'm sure the short-term cost drops to use plastic, but it adds to the long-term ecosystem costs. I'm happy to pay more. . .

allison burgund

February 4, 2020
It is so tempting and convenient but still plastic. I have a refill shop/zero waste store, and am actively looking for pods for both laundry and dish washers without PVOH. Please, Keep researching! I will be a devout customer to the company or companies who can provide a solution here. Keep going!!!

Zozo

February 4, 2020
No plastics. You’re doing great with wax. I’m so proud of you for coming up with these products and proudly using them!

Jay ROSENBEK

February 2, 2020
No plastic. So-called good plastic is a diversion created by the likes of Dow Chemical (see front matter of most recent Nat Geo) so they can continue with their present, potentially deadly business model.

veronica

February 1, 2020
No PVA/PVOH

Keith&Joyce Edwards

February 1, 2020
Dissolveable plastic. It’s still plastic
Stupid idea. Plastic company must have come up with that one

Patricia Etheridge

January 31, 2020
I like the pods. I vote for no plastic/petroleum products.

Christine

January 31, 2020
Continue your development of wax-soap pods. I want to support companies like yours that are looking for plastic free solutions. I just received my first pods today and was happy to see all paper wrapping. Looking forward to trying them vs. solid soap bars. Thank you!

Traci

January 31, 2020
I agree - no PVOH! We do not know what the dissolved particles are going to do to the environment. R&D other ideas please! I struggle with the cost of all kinds of things but ultimately what is the cost to my children's future. What legacy am I leaving behind for them to clean up.

Lisa

January 31, 2020
No plastic. No petroleum products is the best way to go. Continue trying to make the beeswax/similar product work...

Barbara

January 31, 2020
While I make my own soaps from simple basic ingredients, I want to chime in here. First I don't use a dishwasher because I believe it is a huge waste of water and energy. So my opinion may be disregarded in your evaluation. BUT I want to respond about the decomposition of the plastics you are regarding. It may be dissolvable (much like tar sands) but it does not break down readily into usable nutrients for the plants or microorganisms living in the soil. So I wonder about its potential to create cancerous activity in our earth.

LaShanda V

January 31, 2020
Continue to develop your own wax soap pods. I feel more confident in it's health and safety properties for humans and the planet. Additionally, develop a strategic marketing plan to grow the business and improve sales. I plan to make more purchases in the future. Etee is doing a great job. Love your products!

Elizabeth

January 31, 2020
I've been using solid bar soaps for everything. Body, hair, dishes, clothes. For clothes, I also use soap nuts. When I use the bar soap, I use a large size cheese grater to shave off enough to use.
I switched years ago because I refuse to use plastic. My grandma made bar soap so I had a good example.
No plastic wrapping.
I use glass containers for everything.

Apsara Desai

January 31, 2020
This is a great question... ultimately, the dilemma arising from wanting more people to catch on (with "easier" and cheaper products to use, i.e., the PVA/PVOH pods) is that you lead yourself into greater environmental impact issues: how do we package and distribute these? If there's more demand, won't that lead to greater petrochemical reliance? Etc. It seems keeping small, and leaving it up to the consumer to decide whether saving the planet is worth it to them, is still the most eco-friendly way to go - even if it means a smaller consumer population. The largest decisions lie with the government and its' relationship to the oil and (therefore) plastic industries. Until we get a true sea change there, we must each be responsible for our own actions. So I vote beeswax (and I'm not rich AT ALL, but I think it's worth it!). And keep up the advertising!!

Marie

January 30, 2020
Please, no experimental plastics. Enough mysteries have already dissolved in our water.

Theresa

January 30, 2020
No PVA/PVOH please

Mary White

January 30, 2020
No plastic. It dissolves, but it's still a petroleum product.

Maria C Yost

January 30, 2020
No PVOH or any other petroleum based product. Period.

Nat Morse-Noland

January 30, 2020
I'm very uncomfortable of a petroleum-based product with unknown effects dissolving into the water. Beeswax, please.

Mary DePietro

January 30, 2020
No PVA/PVOH. No plastic of any kind.

Veronica Belsuzarri

January 30, 2020
Something that "dissolves" and leaves no trace of anything behind seems a little too good to be true. I prefer the compostable materials until there is a real understanding of what happens to materials that dissolve in water, and what they do--and leave behind--in the water (residues and their impact).

Karen

January 30, 2020
There are still too many unanswered questions. Don't use it till the effects of the non-harmful monomer residual are known. I also do and will pay somewhat more for a truly non-harmful product.

Catherine Steinbrunner

January 30, 2020
The only reason I decided to try your product was the bees wax pod. To be honest, Dawn dish washing liquid is the best performing dish soap I've used. I am willing to give up many things to eliminate that plastic bottle Dawn comes in, including price. I would not buy your product in a dissolving plastic package even if you assured me it was safe for the environment. I compost on property so I'll be testing the biodegradable quality of bees wax .

Martha Sweeting

January 30, 2020
Please avoid using PVA/PVOH, or any other plastics. Please & thanks.

Maurine Winkley

January 30, 2020
Keep using the beeswax is my vote.

Pat Sellergren

January 30, 2020
I don't like the idea of something dissolving into water. There has to be something left of it--will that something be harmful to the environment? I much prefer the idea of something that is compostable.

Christina Jackson

January 30, 2020
It still sounds like it causes water pollution, so I would say stay away from that and keep the compostable containers.

Ann Redd

January 30, 2020
This is a tough question, and I liked the response that proposed using dissolvable plastic as a bridge technology while you continue your research. When I did some very hasty research of my own I came across this story on Chilean scientists who had developed a dissolvable “plastic” that they said was not petroleum based. Is this of any help — or is the following article disingenuous? https://ssir.org/articles/entry/Fighting_Plastic_Pollution_With_Bags_That_Dissolve_in_Water

Lynn Bowen

January 30, 2020
No to plastics of any type please.

Thank you

Frances

January 30, 2020
I would love to see a plastic free world (from this point on) and products that do no harm to the environment. I do and will pay somewhat more for that.

LIsa Jeffs

January 30, 2020
Offer both along with some education for your customers, so that they will know exactly what they are getting. Keep working toward the cleanest, safest product possible at an affordable price.

Victoria Chang

January 30, 2020
I dont want to use any petroleum based product. I will be looking for alternatives to anything plastic.

Don

January 30, 2020
Your two (2) possibilities are way better than what we know currently. I like the choice idea. I find higher prices are a hard sell to my wife. Give me a chance to acclimate her to a different paradigm.

;-)

TErry HAmlin

January 30, 2020
Provide both options unless cost prohibitive. Then go pure and trust your customers to pay for a better Earth.

Kaili B

January 30, 2020
The larger goal of Etee, in my mind, is to help free consumers from the use of plastic. I would say, in keeping with your mission, you should keep consistent and steer clear of PVA/PVOH, given its potential to leave some form of "plastic" behind. There also seems to be lack of clarity around the dissolved matter from PVA/PVOH, so it might be better to just steer clear of the risks, even if there is a price jump for consumers. I understand this could deter some folks, but really, we all need to make tiny sacrifices if we want our society to start changing and becoming more sustainable on a real level.

Shelley Butler

January 30, 2020
I believe you are an ethical company and you should do whatever you feel best. I would trust your decision.

Leslie Henry

January 30, 2020
Stay away from plastics.

Bianca

January 30, 2020
I think you should offer both to offer “better” solutions for a wider demographic. Dish soap is one of the main household items that I’ve had the hardest time finding a more eco-solution for and your beeswax pod is the best solution I’ve come across. But, I still haven’t ordered them because of the cost, although I want to support this. Now that I’ve just been more informed about the dissolvable pods, I will choose to pay extra for the beeswax option because of the unseen repercussions that will likely show themselves in the future with the dissolvable plastics. Perhaps you could offer both until you are able to perfect and offer the beeswax ones at a lower price? I want to share these options with my family but they are low-income and they barely get by so there is no way they will be paying over $5 for 16oz of dish soap.

JEFF CUMMINGS

January 30, 2020
I am torn as they both have their pluses and minuses, but I like the idea of offering both and let the consumer decide!

Melinda

January 30, 2020
Please do not use dissolve able plastics. NO to PVA/PVOH

Rita Helen Lumsden

January 30, 2020
I like the beeswax, not the PVA/PVOH. We need to stop putting that plastic stuff, dissolve able or not, into the environment.

James Oppenborn

January 30, 2020
If a dissolvable microplastic material will still dissolve into microplastic fibers, which are already ubiquitous in the environment and also in organisms, then count me as a "No".

Samantha Holtby

January 30, 2020
I think both options would be better, for the time being . We have to get away from plastic, But alternatives are expensive and under research way more then being offered. As someone on a strict budget. Sadly price does matter.

Nancy I List

January 30, 2020
I agree with Cindy Spitzer. Offer both.
Nancy

Margaret

January 30, 2020
Stick with the wax. Any kind of plastic is a petroleum product, and is undesirable to me and, most likely, the planet.

Madeline Trait

January 30, 2020
No PVOH.
Would rather have something that composted vs. dissolving in the water, our most precious resource.

Michelle

January 30, 2020
I think offering both at different price points is the best thing to do. But in my opinion, I think more importantly is to get your product into a couple of the mainstream stores so it’s easier to get to. All those plastic bottles lining the shelves just kills me!!

Victoria Fuller

January 30, 2020
Please do not use PVA/PVOH. The point of your products is purity and no harmful waste. You would be breaking with the purpose of your company. I am willing to pay more for the environmentally safe stuff.

One product that you could look into making, which I have seen another company make, are flat dry sheets of laundry detergent. When they are put in your laundry with water, then it turns into laundry soap. That would circumvent the need to have to use any kind of gel pod.

Gina Moreno

January 30, 2020
Beeswax, but be careful that the demand does not hurt our pollinators.

Sara Usher

January 30, 2020
No to PVA/PVO, no to fossil fuel based anything. Speed up the research needed to find a more cost effective container.

Thank you!

Marga

January 30, 2020
Fossil fuels are death. We have got go find a different way.

Marion Hessenauer

January 30, 2020
I agree with June Wright. Until we know more we should not use the PVA/PVOH pods. Anything made with fossil fuels is bad for our environment!

Tamara

January 30, 2020
I don’t like the idea of PVA. I watched a video where they showed PVA plastic bags dissolving. At first, the water was clear and then when the bag was dissolved it was cloudy. Although, it is not shown to be harmful currently who is to say it will not be discovered in the future to be. I vote for beeswax.

dennis beebe

January 30, 2020
stay away from the plastics

Cindy Spitzer

January 29, 2020
Can you offer both options and let your customers choose between cheaper or cleaner? I would gladly pay a bit more for a cleaner container. And I would also like to see the masses buy something better than they are buying now, even if I would not buy it.

So offering both is one suggestion.

If offering both is not possible, my second suggestion is to stick with purity and not compromise.
Remember, everything touches everything else. Please make whatever you make with that in mind. Dont compromise.

june Wright

January 29, 2020
Stay clear of a product which 'dissolves' into the water; use what are plant products which compost.
Reusing refillable containers is a very good way to go. Remember when milk bottles went back to the dairy to be sterilized and reused? No, you were too young!Think about what was used before plastic from petrol.

Virginia Currah

January 29, 2020
I think you should do both: use the PVOH packaging now, while you keep researching its post-consumer lifespan, and also introduce the beeswax packaging; while the latter may be more expensive, there are still people who will pay for it, as it is more environmentally responsible.

Jorge Tamargo

January 29, 2020
I believe that key word settled it for me . Fossil fuels are being used because we start seeing something we want . Little realizing that its fossil fuel and that's an unbreakable compound . No to PVA/PVOH . Why keep creating a demand for something that is causing so much harm . Chemical derived from fossil fuels simple do harm no matter how we use them .

AIMEE CHABOT

January 29, 2020
Don't do it. PVA/PVOH might not be a solid piece of waste floating in our oceans, but if it is inconclusive whether or not it biodegrades then we are left with something even more insidious in the water. Solid plastic can at least be fished out of a waterway (so to speak), but a liquid plastic cannot. Now the animals in the ocean aren't just swimming around the plastic, they are actually BREATHING IT IN. That can't be better, I would say it's worse by a long shot. People need to learn to let go of some of their "conveniences" when "conveniences" are what's killing the ecosystem. Just because you can't see it any more doesn't mean it's not there. We need to do better. Please don't do it, be better. Your other products are showing the way, so keep to your vision. Why does the soap have to be liquid anyway? Can you make a soap that dissolves as easily in water as a bath bomb, maybe fizzes to give that frothy effect of a traditional liquid soap?

Jennifer J. Williams

January 29, 2020
Considering the crisis we are currently facing, I think reaching the masses is critical at this point. If that takes using dissolvable plastic, then perhaps that's a reasonable step to take right now. Going entirely plastic-free is awesome, but only a small percentage of people are likely to do that. You'll have a greater impact if you convince loads and loads of people to do much better than they are currently doing, even if the solution is not 100% perfect.

(Plus I'm vegan and find beeswax containers a bit off-putting.)

Emilie

January 29, 2020
could you open some physical small stores so people can refill products you sell ? Etee bar ? Aha
That way you don’t even have to worry about packaging for some of your line and you get to sell to more people for cheaper because they only pay for the actual product?

Lisa H

January 29, 2020
If we don't know, it's a no-go. Don't do it.

EMilie

January 29, 2020
No I don’t think you guys should do that - still going to be present in the water - not an ideal solution
Plastic free please :)

Nancy D Campbell

January 29, 2020
No plastics please! You make it easier for the rest of us by providing products that help us with our resolve.

rachelle soule

January 29, 2020
I feel that you are unique and should continue without the plastic (even if it dissolves) and that is also something that makes you different. Thanks

Patricia Hartman

January 29, 2020
The concern is what is left in the water after these chemicals dissolve. I like your beeswax based items.

cheri roshon

January 29, 2020
I vote no on ANY type of plastic, especialy when you don't know the "down the road" conseqyenses. Remember when "They" said glyphosate was harmless, and dormant once it was in the earth? I didn't believe "Them" then, and am glad I never drank the kool aid,. NO to plastic! Thanks for asking!

Jill Diamant

January 29, 2020
No plastic of any kind please!

Laurel Foley

January 29, 2020
From this consumers standpoint, it’s totally worth the extra money for the Beeswax pods. The fact that you use beeswax pods instead of dissolvable plastic is one of the things that sets your company apart from the masses!

dave barnard

January 29, 2020
If you’re going to abandon the wax, consider using PLANT-based, NON-biodegradable plastic.
This avoids the use of petrochemicals, avoids the release of fossil-source CO2 into the environment when the material eventually breaks down, and avoids the unknown effects of the dissolved monomers you mention. Effectively, you’d be capturing that plant-derived carbon for centuries, creating a CARBON NEGATIVE product. Wouldn't that be best?
Some pertinent articles:
https://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/03/bio-plastic-water-bottles-trickle-into-marketplace/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wait-plastic-can-be-good-for-the-environment/
https://www.environmentalleader.com/2017/03/100-plant-based-pet-bottle-wars-heat/

Shirley Park

January 29, 2020
I read a comment from someone with similar concerns about using wax. What would -happen to the wax - in the dish washer? I had not thought of the effects of the wax on septic systems or sewage pipes. Also with the bees in a challenging world - how do you "harvest" their wax ?
So I guess I would go with the gentleman who suggested using the PVA/PVOH material and keep working on better alternatives.
Thank you for your work!

Edie

January 29, 2020
I like your product because it has No plastic .
Don't ruin it
Plastic free for me

Ida Harris

January 29, 2020
I’d like for your company to remain plastic free....even if is dissolves.

Ann Evans

January 29, 2020
If we don't know it's impact we should bot use it!

Sylvia

January 29, 2020
If one needs to export products use a large container made of natural product like wax and corn husk for example, or returnable glass or metal containers. Personally I like to shop local and refill my containers with products from large containers in stores. Of course the question is are the large containers being recycled back to the original company to refill? That is a solution. 3rd world countries people use plant leaves as plates, sticks for tooth brushes and garbage throw always as containers this too is a solution for our throw away society

Debbie Tamplin

January 29, 2020
I’m happy with the wax tubes. I mixed 1 cup of oil (either cheap olive oil or mineral oil) 2 wax tubes ( completely rinsed and dry) and 1/4 cup lemon juice melted them together in an old pot, pored the mixture in a glass jar and now it’s a fantastic furniture polish. No waste! Please stop using plastic tape on your boxes. That defeats the idea of being plastic free.

Gina Wiggins

January 29, 2020
I agree that one of the main things is to reach the masses. I am in a position where I don't mind spending more for the purest quality, but realize that not everyone can do that. Could you still provide the best possible product that costs more and also add a line for those who have to be more thrifty?

Debbie Tamplin

January 29, 2020
I’m happy with the wax tubes. I mixed 1 cup of oil (either cheap olive oil or mineral oil) 2 wax tubes ( completely rinsed and dry) and 1/4 cup lemon juice melted them together in an old pot, pored the mixture in a glass jar and now it’s a fantastic furniture polish. No waste!

MaryAnne Maigret

January 29, 2020
Well, wax in sufficient quantity may not be harmless either. A recent molasses spill in the ocean of Hawaii smothered and killed coral reef, yet is entirely “natural.” I think priority should be given to products that are solids and don’t need a container. Tablet shampoos are a good example. Dish soap could easily be applied to a sponge in that way.

Denise Corradini

January 29, 2020
The world has gotten into this mess by using materials no one had any idea would be so harmful. If you don't know how long we'd have to live with dissolvable plastics -- or their impact on fish and wildlife -- DON'T USE THEM.

Pamela Cauble

January 29, 2020
For the immediate future, focus on reaching the masses. Meanwhile, keep researching the very best zero waste products/containers. Go in the right direction, even if we can't hit the ultimate immediately. Be pragmatic.

John Reble

January 29, 2020
I think you no choice right now but to start by using the PVOH. You’ve done a good job laying out the argument in a fair way. But this a business you’re running; it is neither funded nor backed by any external sources who might have their own agenda. You have an agenda and you stick to it. You want to grow your business and establish an awareness of what it takes to be successful both as a stand-alone transparent company and put forth an honest up to date product that works: that is, a product completely comparable with established products but is designed to be virtually biodegradable and competitive in price. And price has to be included in the argument. Your consumers want a product that works as well or better than others and is priced accordingly. You just can’t be a business that subsidizes it’s green product line to accord with the choices of a narrow segment of your market, you wouldn’t last five minutes. Those who are 100% “committed” to green will never be completely satisfied. There is no such thing, I think, as brand loyalty. You’ve caught the wave, in fact you’ve helped establish the wave. Stick to your knitting: that is to create a product that is pretty close to 100% but also is not part of a political/sociological movement. In my opinion your best marketing devices are in the name “ette” ( and what it stands for) and your total up front transparency and honesty. The question I am responding to is proof of your raison d’etre (I think that’s right. I was never strong in French). You’ve explained the alternatives; now go out and sell the capsules promising you will continue to look for beeswax alternative as soon as circumstances and R and D make it practical and affordable.

Wendie Howland

January 29, 2020
Why not have your soaps in more solid form that don't need "pods" of any kind? That would seem to be the obvious solution to both problems. Note, you have probably seen the ads on TV for little tablets that go in water to become dishwashing soap, handwashing foam, and general surface cleaners. They advertise this as the last plastic bottle (theirs) you'll ever buy; I have a metal pump top that fits on a Mason canning jar. Get a bunch of those as an add-on to tablets.

Rebecca Kightlinger

January 29, 2020
Because pods have to be packaged in plastic containers and still rupture easily, I’d rather see wax containers used for liquid products

Mavis

January 29, 2020
use PVA/PVOH for now as you continue to develop wax soap-pods. I believe for them to appeal to the masses they have to be economical and easy to use.

Nicole Goffinet

January 29, 2020
I have bought dishwasher pods from 7th Generation that are encased in this I believe. It worries me that it dissolves and incorporates chemicals in its makeup that will then persist in the environment for an uncertain amount of time. Normally I buy DW powder in cardboard boxes with a metal pull-down "spout". I like and appreciate your guiding principles when it comes to picking packaging - if you can stick with those that would be my preference.

Sandra K Roach

January 29, 2020
My concerns with wax based pods would be how does the wax behave when it is melted and comes in contact with your dishes or clothes and when it is discharged will it then solidify in the sewage system like fat does??

As new technology arises, like PVOH you have to weigh wether or not it is harmful to our water.

Personally, being on a septic system, I would avoid wax products and be more inclined to use the PVOH products.

Kristine

January 29, 2020
I think continue with developing your natural pods. I see the PVAL as to much of an unknown. I understand the need for a price reduction but at what cost to your principals. I think in this day and age your message of caring for the environment has attracted so many. You don’t want to lose those customers or weaken that message.

Sydney Lancaster

January 29, 2020
"PVOH on the other hand just dissolves away." Yes, but "away" is still in our water supply, and as you point out, we don't know the long term impact of the monomers that are left behind. There IS waste - we just can't see it. The wax soap pods can be composted - there are other options out there, though. The natural foods industry has been using gelatine for capsules (and vegan, non-animal gelatine) for years. It might be worth exploring that option in a thicker, ALSO dissolvable, membrane to contain the soap. The stuff they use is injested, and has to pass various certifications for safety. OR: use a neutral, and REFILLABLE sturdy option: stainless steel tubes with silicone (or other neutral material) stoppers, that can be recycled or returned for RE-USE! The packaging costs, but you could offer a discount to customers who return their tubes for refilling. *this could also open up the option of you marketing your product to eco-friendly shops across the country that have refill bars!! (Tare Shop in Halifax, Earth's General Store nd Carbon Environmental in Edmonton as examples).

Lois

January 29, 2020
Please stick with then wax pods! Better "safe" waste than the unknown consequences of trying to save money using a petro based pod. And, as mentioned, it goes against principle #2. Meaning you would be abandoning a fundamental driver which could cost you consumer trust and confidence.

paula aicklen

January 29, 2020
would rather you continue developing "wax" soap pods. Don't like PVOH

L. E. Bruce

January 29, 2020
This is hard. My husband and I don't use a lot and I can fit some things into my budget, but for a family of 5 like my daughter's, it is just not possible. On the other hand, I would love to see completely biodegradable products in the future. Can't you do both?

Juli

January 29, 2020
We used to hide under our desks during air raid drills too! No to plastics.

Genevieve Laurin

January 29, 2020
I guess the answer to your question really depends on the identity of the PVA monomer. From what I've been able to find out, few organisms can decompose it in nature. Plus, it does come from oil, hence more carbon entering the cycle. Is there no plant-based alternative that could be affordable? I know starch can be modified to serve as short-lived containers... Is there no hope from that side? Using plant-based materials would seem to solve the issues you are bringing up; but as there is no perfect solution, they might bring about other problems, such as land uses. Oh well, hope you'll find something useful in these ramblings nonetheless.

Christine

January 29, 2020
while the plastic pods are convienent, I didn't realize exactly what that material was, or how it might still get into the ecosystem. On the alternative, I am not sure what the wax soap pods would mean to convenience or budget. I guess I would have to sample some and make a determination.

Meema

January 29, 2020
Please continue developing the wax soap-pods.

I can't avoid plastic but I'm only buying ones that I know I will use for a long time. I'm still looking for ways to wash my polyester household stuff without adding microplastics (laundry bags etc).

Bryan B

January 29, 2020
I vote against using the PVOH as it's knowingly putting some chemical in the environment for people's convenience.

Steve Aaron

January 29, 2020
My question is why pods? The answer is convenience.
If something is to be sacrificed why not convenience?

Kim Chartrand

January 29, 2020
plastic/petrochemical free please. Promote the bar soap. Include a resuseable beeswax wrapper (over the soap) as part of the charge.

JAne

January 29, 2020
Leave fossil fuels in the ground. Their use supports fracking and the production of UNnatural gas. NO PLASTIC ingredients. “A lot better » d/n mean « good » or non-toxic to critters & the soil & us.

Sheila J Hamill

January 29, 2020
I think the wax soap pods are the answer, but since I don't know how much more the cost is,
would offering both be a way to give people a choice if there budget wouldn't allow the wax pod?

Jessica Lopez

January 29, 2020
Keep up the fight against plastic!

NICOLE

January 29, 2020
No you should not incorporate PVOH into your products !!! Keep using wax soap pods !!!

Sandra

January 29, 2020
I believe you should remain on the cutting and progressive edge with wax soap pods. Keep moving clearly in the zero waste direction.
Thank you for asking for input. I appreciate what you are striving for and am happy to use your well considered products.

HR

January 29, 2020
Tough one. There’s also the problem of the wax pods cracking and leaking. (Happened to me- thanks for quick replacement ). I like the idea of wax over any kind of plastic. Though I did find the bulk of them to be alarming. Almost as much package as product. I don’t know what the footprint of producing them is. Hard to have a strong opinion without being able to compare all the variables involved in each alternative. But when it comes down to it, if the pods can’t hold liquid during shipping it’s not a sustainable option from a business perspective. Best of luck.

HR

January 29, 2020
Tough one. There’s also the problem of the wax pods cracking and leaking. (Happened to me- thanks for quick replacement ). I like the idea of wax or any kind of plastic. Though I did find the bulk of them to be alarming. Almost as much package as product. I don’t know what the footprint of producing them is. Hard to have a strong opinion without being able to compare all the variables involved in each alternative. But when it comes down to it, if the pods can’t hold liquid during shipping it’s not a sustainable option from a business perspective. best of luck.

Bonnie Levine

January 29, 2020
Tough call. First impression is that 'petroleum based' anything is bad. However, the studies show that it's better than what we have now floating forever in the oceans. Another upside is that it's less costly to manufacture and more consumers will benefit and motivate those sitting on the fence to switch if the price isn't prohibitive. The lower cost is important since we want more people to try eco-friendly. If there was a way to get rid of the petroleum, it would solve all issues.

Chelsey Shockley

January 29, 2020
I definitely prefer the compostable pod option made of natural ingredients. Even if it does still create waste, at least it's natural waste we can compost and know that it's not leaching plastics into our already-polluted waters and bodies.

Jane & Steve Lutrario

January 29, 2020
We like the wax idea

Janet Ramsay

January 29, 2020
Plastic free please! I will sadly have to find a different alternative if you decide to use plastic (even if it does dissolve).

Shari Lane

January 29, 2020
I vote not to incorporate PVOH, and keep up the good non-petrochemical work! We'll all have to pay a price sooner or later, if we don't get a handle on climate change caused in large part by the extraction, use, and disposal of oil-based products, and I vote for sooner. Get your customers and investors involved in drumming up support from those who can afford it, and donations to provide these products to those who can't.

Steve Mele

January 29, 2020
I think you should continue to develop a non-petrochemical alternative to plastic. The more I learn, the more I believe that many of the problems we face stem from the petrochemical industry so reducing their grip on our economy is a lofty goal. To help with R&D, have you considered partnering with or creating a non-profit organization?

Debbi

January 29, 2020
I purchased your dish soap and am very happy with your pod option. I like the idea of staying away from oil based products. Thank you for your diligence!

Linda Adams

January 29, 2020
After reading the discussion above about your PVA/PVOH concerns, I am inclined to want you to stay with the beeswax, soy wax, etc., and continue your research into alternatives and improvements.
I really appreciate you asking for input from your faithful customers and your goals of improving your products. It says a lot about your company!

Carl Olson

January 29, 2020
I would support incorporation of PVOH and at the same time pursue making this oil free in the future. I have purchased the wax soap pod product, however the price point is most likely discouraging for too many.

Debbie DeKalb

January 29, 2020
I'm not comfortable with the unknowns surrounding the monomer. I support the wholly non-carbon-footprint approach and until there is more data available, I don't want to see you compromise.

Tracy Lynn Angel

January 29, 2020
I would love to see you develop your own natural alternatives, the world desperately needs more innovators like you.

DENISE B VELASCO

January 29, 2020
I vote do not incorporate PVOH please, continue to develop your own healthy products.

Bibi Prival

January 29, 2020
Stick with the wax pods or look into algae pods, loliware is doing amazing things with algae.

Tod Ransdell

January 29, 2020
PVA/PVOH is GRAS by EU, North American and other scientific authorities around the world. It is a significant improvement over traditional polymers. For the time being; I think that the proposed intended use of PVOH is a good interim alternative material to use while R&D continues on beeswax and/or other alternative materials.

Mary Murphy

January 29, 2020
Even though the plastic dissolves in water we drink that water and what harm will that eventually cause us and everything that lives in water and depends on water. I don’t think a dissolving plastic is the right way to go. What about products that are concentrated and the consumer adds water and uses their own glass containers, that way you have smaller containers to produce. Maybe the bees wax containers would work. Give consumers ideas on how to recycle them or a return policy like juice containers.

chetanaa

January 29, 2020
I think it is best to totally go away from oil. Therefore I would prefer you kept exploring other options and made them available to people.
As you said we don't even know how long it takes for those PVOH pods to really go away....and that will have another substance entering our water streams.
My vote is to stay away from PVA/PVOH - with perspective to a future in the long run, the right approach in my opinion. Thank you for asking.

Deborah

January 29, 2020
My feeling is that you should not revisit PvOH. it strikes out on 2 counts at least (petroleum and not biodegrading into usable nutrients) and i'm sure you can come up with something better. it always worried me that plastic that 'broke down' was going to break down into smaller bits of plastic. so it has proved, and so bad.

Carla E Brown

January 29, 2020
This is a really tough question. Bringing the cost down to make it available to more people is a huge advantage. On the other hand, will we find out down the road that it was harmful to the environment? Will it leave micro plastic in the water?

Maggie Taylor

January 29, 2020
I’d like to think that if we set a time limit for the dissolution products we could find a solution that better suits our goals. In the mean time we are getting more customers on board with these products. More units would allow for a lower price simply because of the volume and getting plastic out of the system is a must. My 2 cents

brian taylor

January 29, 2020
I say no to PVA/PVOH. Why? Two reasons. One, it leaves debatably biodegradable plastic residue in water. Two, it’s fossil fuel based.
Take the higher road!!

Diane Cooke

January 29, 2020
A big no from me. "It still leaves something behind" is my objection and the chemical base is just one more pollutant. I will research laundry and dishwasher detergents that are not so chemically based (washing soda?) to minimize the numbers of chemicals I am around and put in the earth. I expect we use way more than we actually need anyway and have reduced the amount of anything that I use in cleaning.

pamela giardi

January 29, 2020
no. just no.
if you are using any kind of plastic. your product is no longer plastic free

Deborah D’Camp

January 29, 2020
Keep working on your wax soap pods

Natasha Marston

January 29, 2020
I think you should continue to pave the way on developing biodegradable packaging solutions. Although I think dissolvable plastics should be looked at as a temporary help to our food packaging problems I would feel better if they ended up in landfills and not our waterways. We need to protect our waterways as much as we can from more microplastic pollution.
I think you guys are holding the highest standards and should continue to do so. We should engage more foundations and change makers on helping to fund and drive R+D on these huge packaging issues.
Thanks

Nora

January 29, 2020
Please don't incorporate PVOH into your products. You stated the PVOH/PVAL dissolves, but is leaving "something" behind. If the "something" is a petrochemical, it's not acceptable when there are safer alternative, such as bees wax. The overabundance of petrochemical-based plastics is poisonous and destructive, and I constantly look for products that are packaged using other materials. Unfortunately, I am often disappointed... We don't yet know what the "something" is that's left behind, and the out of sight, out of mind mentality will fool people who may convince themselves to think it's totally safe for the environment when it could be insidiously poisoning the oceans and groundwater, etc.
I think there is a large number of folks out here who are hoping and waiting for products that do no/or as little harm as possible to the environment that they can use without knowing they are supporting a part of the problem that's killing our planet. We keep hoping and requesting for a more plastic-free world. The world is drowning in it and we have to stop the madness. Thank you very much.

Andrea Espy

January 29, 2020
I say do both....and give the consumer the choice to buy the one that aligns with their values. Both are great alternatives! So either way it is a win!

Carolyn Kerr

January 29, 2020
I really think it is important to use either package free products (such as shampoo bars) or use the beeswax containers for liquid items. Regarding biodegradable plastics, they are still plastics. I feel like we need to eliminate plastics from our world in each case we can. You speak of the cost being higher but the long term costs are undeniable. Education as to long term consequences is important.

Paula

January 29, 2020
I don’t like the high price, but I really don’t like using plastic, dissolving makes me think it it still exists in the water and that doesn’t seem good

Pearl Cherrington

January 29, 2020
No PVOH since there are still unknowns even when it dissolves. Even though the beeswax pods leave waste, I think it's the way to go until there are other solutions to the PVOH. Why make pods? what is their use?

Jennifer Scholefield

January 29, 2020
I personally will not use anything made from oil products. It may cost more to buy products not made from oil but I'm willing. However that being said I have read articles of products made from hemp and mushrooms and avocado that dissolve so perhaps research those. Hemp is a cheap product. I will continue to buy oil free products though

Joy Beckner

January 29, 2020
YES! Please compostable products. Here, on vacation in San Miguel de Allende, GTO, MX, I see where some local coffee shops provide compostable lids, PLA, number 7. Wake up, Starbucks!

LIgia

January 29, 2020
That’s a tricky point. While the beeswax option would be ideal since it can be composted and reintroduced into the environment in a more harmless way, I do agree that cost is a big point when it comes to reaching the masses. Not everyone has the mindset that if they want something to be biodegradable and eco friendly, they may have to pay a higher price.
Would it be viable to potentially offer both options? Beeswax for those that are willing to pay more for a biodegradable, 100% plastic-free option, and PVOH for those that are more heavily influenced by price.

MS GOLAN

January 29, 2020
There are no easy solutions & no way to make everyone happy.
This is your area , so do what you feel is best.

Leslie

January 29, 2020
The more we can go plastic free, the better.Although the beeswax is more expensive it may not be the only alternative. more research may be needed to find the best solution.

John

January 29, 2020
I'd say continue to skip PVA/PVOH to help forge a path to continue moving away from oil and gas by curbing the demand for them. Perhaps a takeback program for the wax pod waste to recycle into new pods could be an intermediate solution until a better dissolvable solution is found?

Sue Brightly

January 29, 2020
Thanks for asking. I feel we need to get away from all plastics. We need to get beyond “convenience” thinking, and into sustainable thinking. I vote no to single use anything. how about recyclable tin, glass, or steel cans, coated paper tubes, etc? Thanks for your work!!

Jennifer Teifer

January 29, 2020
Yes. Use pvoh. Change has to start somewhere.

GailTrump

January 29, 2020
NO.NO NO

GailTrump

January 29, 2020
NO.NO NO

Heather Warren

January 29, 2020
I think I would prefer the beeswax and just toss it in the compost. As long as that isn't an issue for the bees! I personally do not trust anything plastic/silicone/chemical.

Randy Wade

January 29, 2020
Say no to PVA/PVOH.

Gregory & Pamela Bisbee

January 29, 2020
I say keep experimenting with the wax-soap pods. Not exactly sure about the dissolving plastic. Needs more investigating.

Kate

January 29, 2020
Why do pods at all? And can’t you do the same for laundry soap as for the dishwashing liquid? I could add my water in a glass bottle or reuse an old detergent jug many, many times. What’s with the need for pods?

Deborah Bhai

January 29, 2020
Please continue to develop your "wax soap-pods"

Patr Baldwin

January 29, 2020
Too early to decide. Instead of incorporating products in the early stages of development that MAY LEAVE toxins or be less than biodegradable or that leave something in the water or earth, it' better to continue testing. What the new products leave in the environment may be worse than what we have now. No oil use is the best situation. Fossil fuel remnants are destroying the planet.

marc elrich

January 29, 2020
I'd go with the beeswax, though you didn't say what nature of The waste it left behind was. i like the place long term film at red ategy potentially.

susan alvey

January 29, 2020
I strongly believe in no more more plastics. The world has enough. Just because it dissolves can't mean it goes away.

Caroline

January 29, 2020
They may make the claim to be dissolvable. But, they do not. There is often residue left over in my washing machine (and I use them ever so infrequently), the product doesn't go down the drain and dissolve. It stays in my machine and I have to clean it out. I don't use these pods in my dishwasher for the same reason. I have heard that they can clog up your machine as they do not dissolve. Stick with the wax. Could we send it back to you for reuse?? Bees work hard to make that stuff. Thanks for all the work and for asking.

Kathy Bradley

January 29, 2020
I say go with your own product. It's going to take a couple of years for the masses to start thinking about converting anyway, and I'm more of the Bernie school of thought when it comes to doing the right thing: less bad is not good. People get complacent with "less bad" and forget there's more to be done. Ya gotta go all the way, and do the good thing.

Eileen Melva Steffens

January 29, 2020
Yes, we should use biodegradable plastic as soon as possible and also charge for plastic bags like European countries.

Sarah Berto

January 29, 2020
YES OF COURSE we should lead a plastic free way of life! Please continue do this and improving our footprint on this earth. Thank you so much!

Richard Gregson

January 29, 2020
PVOH is very low toxicity (professional opinion) other than some local irritation effects and is much better than regular plastics. Minimal information about long-term environmental issues with solutions of the monomer in the environment ... on the other hand, it is widely used in many industries so there is a lot of it out there regardless of what this company chooses to do. Nothing is perfect, life is a compromise, there are worse materials out there. Why not do a test run?

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Polyvinyl-alcohol

Dora WInter

January 29, 2020
All the strides your company has made is remarkable and an immense improvement on the current plastic options. I say incorporate PVOH now and get a ‘better’ product in use now, and continue to develop your truly biodegrable products. Once they are perfected, perhaps the world will have changed enough to support higher priced yet superior products like yours, and hopefully those products will become standard.

Thomas

January 29, 2020
PVOH is a step forward and is viable, today. The world didn't create the mess we're in overnight and it's going to take time and more than a couple of transit stops to get to a better place.

ROsalind

January 29, 2020
Well done. You are obviously doing your homework better than most of us could possibly do and I feel confident that you will come up with the right answer. I would be happy to pay more if it helped with the plastic disaster.

Ken Cory

January 29, 2020
I say stick to your core principles and leave PVOH to the big corporations to develop.

Marguerite Longtin

January 29, 2020
To be honest, I am not a fan of the beeswax pods as they can leak if not totally sealed. Why can't you make dry tablet or powder? I would not be a fan of the PVOH. It is a struggle to find a good alternative.

jane ward

January 29, 2020
Please continue to work on the Beeswax option. Just "dissolving" an oil based product does not sound healthy and sustainable in the long run- for people or the planet. Thanks.

Paul DeMarte

January 29, 2020
Please continue to develop beeswax pods. We need to move completely away from oil-based products.

N.C.H

January 29, 2020
Don't use. Thanks.